Episode 44
Reunification in Foster Care: Why It Matters and Why It Hurt | E44
Life Update / Conversation Setup
This week, we sit down with Josh Cortez, pastor at Westfield Friends Church and foster dad of nearly eight years. He and his wife have had over 10 kids in their home, and their story is unique because almost every placement has ended in reunification.
That perspective shapes everything about how they approach foster care.
Big Topic: Reunification and Loving Bio Parents
Josh shares why reunification is not just something they accept, but something they actively pursue.
We talk about:
- Why reunification reflects the heart of the gospel
- How foster care can be a ministry of reconciliation
- Why bio parents are often misunderstood
- The tension of wanting what is best for a child while trusting a broken system
Even when reunification is good, it is still incredibly hard.
Personal Foster Care Stories
We get into real, lived experiences:
- Kids going home and the grief that follows
- Their biological children grieving placements for days
- Moments where reunification felt too fast and out of your control
- Stories of building real relationships with biological parents
Biblical Perspective
This episode is rooted deeply in Scripture and the gospel.
Josh talks about:
- Foster care as a picture of redemption and reconciliation
- The call to die to yourself daily in following Jesus
- Living as ambassadors of reconciliation from 2 Corinthians 5
- Seeing bio parents as people made in the image of God
Practical Encouragement
If you are struggling in foster care, especially with bio parents, this episode gives real, practical wisdom:
- Resentment is normal, but you do not have to stay there
- You need community to sustain this calling
- Rest is not optional, it is necessary
- You may be the only advocate that child has
- Loving bio parents starts with surrendering your own heart
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Speaking Requests
If your church, conference, or organization would like Jason and Whitney to speak about foster care, adoption, faith, leadership, or living a meaningful life through small acts of faithfulness, you can contact them at:
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Music Credit
"Paradise Found" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons.
Transcript
Every time we've seen kids go home and things are good, like the situation is better, it's still hard.
Speaker B:Welcome to Dream Small, where we believe God does big things through the small and everyday faithfulness of his people.
Speaker B:I'm Jason.
Speaker A:And I'm Whitney.
Speaker A:We're a family of eight who's fostered, adopted, and stumbled our way through learning that small, everyday choices can change lives.
Speaker B:In a world that tells you to chase big, we dare you to dream.
Speaker A:Because you know what?
Speaker A:It's not about chasing fame.
Speaker A:It's about choosing faithfulness.
Speaker B:Josh, thank you for coming on the podcast, man.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:Thank you for the invite.
Speaker B:Well, after you spoke at the conference and you gave such a good message, I figured I should probably give you and my listeners an opportunity to hear you talk, because that was awesome.
Speaker A:Yeah, I appreciate that.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker A:It was humbling and a privilege to get to speak to a room full of foster parents, adoptive parents, kinship folks.
Speaker A:It was really, really a fun time for me.
Speaker B:Well, you did good.
Speaker B:So kudos, because sometimes some of those I know can be hard to prepare.
Speaker B:So before we get into it, let me give you the quick bio here, everybody.
Speaker B:We're talking with Josh Cortez tonight.
Speaker B:He serves as the lead pastor at Westfield Friends Church, where he is dedicated to fostering deep discipleship and a formative life with Christ.
Speaker B:Alongside his wife Amy and their three sons, he prioritizes family and community, a commitment reflected in their long standing service as foster parents.
Speaker B:Josh holds a Master of Divinity from Moody Theological Seminary, is currently pursuing a doctorate at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, focusing on discipleship to Jesus in the 21st century.
Speaker B:He is most passionate about preaching, teaching, and walking with others on their journey with Jesus.
Speaker B:He's also an enthusiast of music, golf, and cooking.
Speaker A:Is that it?
Speaker A:That's it, yeah.
Speaker B:Good man.
Speaker B:What are you listening to right now?
Speaker B:What music is in your playlist?
Speaker A: so I drive an older Acura MDX: Speaker A:So for Christmas, I asked for a bunch of CDs so I can just start filling the car up with C. So I went back to, like, high school, got Coldplay, couple Coldplay CDs.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Got.
Speaker A:I asked for John Mayer live in LA, which is one of my favorite John Mayer CDs ever.
Speaker A:He just does an amazing.
Speaker A:I mean, he's got like three different bands basically in that recording, so that's great.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And then some.
Speaker A: Jesus culture: Speaker A:Like old school Jesus culture.
Speaker A:Oh, wow.
Speaker A:Right on.
Speaker A:And then Linkin park, like one of the first, I think title.
Speaker B:I loved Linkin Park.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So a little bit of everything.
Speaker A:It's kind of, you know, musically that's always been where it is.
Speaker B:When I was in college, I loved Lincoln park and I was trying to find a Christian band that kind of sounded like them.
Speaker B:Have you heard of the band 38th Parallel by Chance?
Speaker A:I've not heard about 38th Parallel, but.
Speaker B:That's kind of Lincoln Parkish, if you like Lincoln Park.
Speaker B:Very late.
Speaker B:Yeah, they're old too.
Speaker B:Like, I don't.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:Before we get started in the podcast, one thing Whitney and I always do is we share something we're grateful for to keep us.
Speaker B:You know, in our world of foster care, sometimes it can be challenging to find grateful things.
Speaker B:So to keep us, you know, disciplined, we like to share something we're grateful for.
Speaker B:So to start us off, what are you grateful for today?
Speaker A:Today?
Speaker A:Yeah, I just, you know, I.
Speaker A:It was a busy day, traveling a little bit today and got home and other by our bio kids and my wife had stuff to do, running errands.
Speaker A:And so I was with the Littles and they were just playing with each other.
Speaker A:Like they're just having fun, hanging out and just got to sit there for a little bit and rest.
Speaker A:We're dog sitting too.
Speaker A:And so the dog was chilling, like just hanging out and it was just a moment to like sit in the goodness of God with the Littles as they were playing the dog that were babysitting and somewhat of a quiet house because, you know, when you got five kids, that's not always the case.
Speaker B:No, those moments are precious.
Speaker B:Yeah, I know.
Speaker B:I always value those moments.
Speaker B:I am grateful for.
Speaker B:I had the opportunity to coach my 6th graders middle school softball team at Greenwood Christian Academy this spring.
Speaker B:And my wife is awesome because she juggles the rest of heard while I'm off at practice.
Speaker B:She encouraged me and, you know, kind of don't want to say forced me into it, but basically said, hey, the girls aren't gonna have a season if they have a coach.
Speaker B:So I was reluctant at first, but it's been a lot of fun.
Speaker B:The girls are great and it's been fun and a great joy watching Delaney play.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:All right, man, so let's dig into it.
Speaker B:How long have you been in foster care?
Speaker B:How long have you been a foster dad?
Speaker B:How many kiddos have you had?
Speaker B:What's.
Speaker B:What's your story?
Speaker A:Yeah, so it has been.
Speaker A:I did the math to make sure.
Speaker A:My wife Amy says, like, I just throw numbers out now that it's, you know, it's been a while.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:It's been almost eight years.
Speaker A:So, you know, May ish time frame is when we got our first placement a long time ago.
Speaker A:And it's been almost eight years.
Speaker A:We've had, we had number 12 is in our home right now.
Speaker A:We've got 11 and 12 in our homes with us.
Speaker A:And so we've had, you know, 10 kiddos in our home over those eight years.
Speaker A:And then we've got two currently.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's crazy, you guys.
Speaker B:We started our foster care journey April in 18.
Speaker B:So we're pretty much on the same timeline and we've had 14.
Speaker B:So we're pretty close.
Speaker B:Yeah, we're pretty close.
Speaker B:One thing you shared once, we connected, and that's kind of where I want this episode to go because you shared a really unique perspective on your passion for reconciliation.
Speaker B:A lot of foster parents, not that they're anti reunification, but they're a little hesitant.
Speaker B:And you made it very clear that is your goal, that's what you strive for.
Speaker B:Walk me through how that became such a passion for you and your wife.
Speaker A:Yeah, so when we got into foster care, it wasn't something we were actually like looking for.
Speaker A:My wife at the time was a children's pastor about an hour north of where we are outside of Indy.
Speaker A:And she was, you know, had worked with Josiah Whites, had relationship with them.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And the church had said, well, Josiah Whites reached out, said, hey, can we kind of have like a call out meeting?
Speaker A:Can we show up on Sunday, have a little like, you know, two minute thing in the service and then just see who shows up afterward.
Speaker A:And so that's what we did.
Speaker A:My wife kind of ran that I was there to help support.
Speaker A:I helped set up tables and food and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:And we sat through that meeting, only one other family showed up.
Speaker A:And so we sat through that meeting and both of us at the end of it just crushed and felt like, man, God's calling us to do this.
Speaker A:And so, you know, we started that process and I think what became clear for us in that time early on was just like this, like real life living out of the gospel through foster care and those pieces of redemption, those stories of brokenness being made whole.
Speaker A:And for us, like all we've kind of known up until this point, which I.
Speaker A:It's really unificate reunification in almost all of our placements over those eight years.
Speaker A:And, you know, 10ish kiddos that have gone home.
Speaker A:They've all gone back to be with parents.
Speaker A:And so I think it was something that formed early on in this, like, connection of the gospel, but in our eight years of doing this has become this thing like, no, we know this can happen.
Speaker A:We see it happen now.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:We also acknowledge that's not always the case and that there are spaces and places where, you know, reunification may not be the best thing, but for us, it has always been from those early years until now even.
Speaker A:And we want.
Speaker A:We want to see God do a miracle in the lives of these families and in the lives of these kids.
Speaker A:And the ultimate miracle is that biological parents or biological homes are healed and made whole and kids can go back home.
Speaker A:And so for us, that's kind of been that piece.
Speaker B:Would you guys.
Speaker B:So just curious here, like, if a kid came to you guys and reunification, wasn't it, would you guys adopt at this point?
Speaker B:Or would you guys.
Speaker B:Are you guys strictly just foster parents?
Speaker A:Yeah, we've.
Speaker A:We've said it's been case by case.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And so, like, with one of ours, we're on the road to that.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:It's been long enough.
Speaker A:I mean, she's been in a part of our family for a long time at this point.
Speaker A:We've just always said we're open to wherever God leads, and we want to be obedient to that.
Speaker A:And so, you know, our aim is reunification.
Speaker A:And the opportunity or.
Speaker A:Or the space to kind of move into that has just never been a thing up until recently.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, we.
Speaker A:We kind of just pray through it.
Speaker A:Discern how is God calling us to.
Speaker A:To move in this space.
Speaker A:And if we both feel like, you know, this is the best thing, then we move forward.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, definitely open to it.
Speaker A:We're not like, you know, no.
Speaker A:No adoption at all.
Speaker A:It's just not been a thing up until this point.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's so interesting.
Speaker B:Me and Whitney and I got into foster care just because we felt called to care for vulnerable kids as a response, you know, to the gospel, kind of like what you, you know, alluded to, and we've ended up adopting three kids already.
Speaker B:It's just like, it's so interesting how kids and God does different things.
Speaker B:And, you know, we've had nearly the same number of placements.
Speaker B:Three of ours never left.
Speaker B:And yeah, it's fascinating.
Speaker B:Have you had.
Speaker B:So in your time in loving your foster kiddos, how has your.
Speaker B:Has your perception of bio parents evolved?
Speaker B:How you always been this, like, strong for bio parents?
Speaker B:What's your journey been like with bio parents?
Speaker A:Yeah, I think that's an interesting one.
Speaker A:I think, you know, when we started and we were navigating those waters, those first placements, the relationship with bio parents didn't really ever become a thing.
Speaker A:You know, we.
Speaker A:We tried to, like, we've always done a notebook where we, like, communicate for during visit.
Speaker A:Like, we'll send it with them on visit and, you know, we kind of give an update.
Speaker A:You know, Johnny or Sally did this and this.
Speaker A:This week, or this is going on and.
Speaker A:And then a little bit try to have, like, hey, we're praying for you.
Speaker A:Like, we're.
Speaker A:We're wanting to see God work in your life and.
Speaker A:And really, like, there was no back and forth early on until maybe.
Speaker B:Let me interrupt you real quick on that.
Speaker A:Yeah, go for it.
Speaker B:Because Whitney did the same thing, and she really struggled with the lack of back and forth.
Speaker B:Did you guys struggle with that too?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker A:Like, that's hard for sure, when you're, you know, you're kind of.
Speaker A:You're being vulnerable in a very real way with a stranger that you don't know.
Speaker A:And to constantly be rejected is hard.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And yeah, that was.
Speaker A:Even now, like, we do that now when we get new placements or when we've got kids on visits and things like that.
Speaker A:And, um, that's still hard.
Speaker A:But we've also had some parents who have really responded well to that.
Speaker A:That was our experience.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so I think that's been the kind of the motivator is, like, it's not everybody's cup of tea.
Speaker A:And like, for us, we have to put ourselves in their shoes at times.
Speaker A:And, like, you know, we're seen in their eyes to some as.
Speaker A:As the enemy.
Speaker A:Like, we're part of the system that took their kid from them.
Speaker A:When we have no intention to be part of that system.
Speaker A:We're just.
Speaker A:We're trying to help on the other end.
Speaker A:And so there's.
Speaker A:There's some of that, like, you know, just some empathy for.
Speaker A:For where they are and what's going on.
Speaker A:And maybe the.
Speaker A:The lack of control they have.
Speaker A:And we feel those things on our end, like, what's going on?
Speaker A:The lack of control we have as foster parents.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, all those pieces.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was so fascinating because Whitney, when we first started, she was like, I'm gonna.
Speaker B:You know, she had a heart to love bio parents.
Speaker B:Because, you know, as, you know, a lot of the reason these kids are in the spots that come in our home is because nobody loved their Parents.
Speaker A:Well, right.
Speaker B:Everybody.
Speaker B:A lot of times that people, when you get into this, think bio parents, kids, parents that lose their kids.
Speaker B:Are these, for lack of a better way of saying it, awful humans, our experiences.
Speaker B:That's not the case.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker B:And honestly, if they had just had parents that loved them and taught them well, it wouldn't be this way.
Speaker B:Is that kind of your guys's experience as well that you interacting with those bio parents?
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:I think, you know, when folks, folks always ask like, oh, what do you know?
Speaker A:What do you don't know?
Speaker A:I'm like, well, what one?
Speaker A:We don't know a ton.
Speaker A:What I do know is these parents do love their kids, like for the most part, you know, generally speaking they do love their kids.
Speaker A:They want the best for them.
Speaker A:They just sometimes don't know what that is or how to do that.
Speaker A:I give them that.
Speaker A:And so yeah, I absolutely, I think it is like, it is a hard thing.
Speaker A:And we've just, I think we've been blessed enough to see little glimpses of what it looks like when parents can respond and see that we're.
Speaker A:We want them to, to get healthy, we want them to do the things we want their kids to go back to them.
Speaker A:And again that, you know, that's just, it's not always the case too.
Speaker B:Is.
Speaker B:I'm going to ask you a question I almost led you, but I'm going to ask it more objectively as to not lead you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What do you think of when people tell you that those foster kids were lucky to have you guys?
Speaker B:What's your initial visceral response?
Speaker A:Yeah, I understand what they're saying.
Speaker A:I get it.
Speaker A:And it is a little bit of like it's so much deeper than that.
Speaker A:Like there's so much more to unpack.
Speaker A:There it is, a can of worms.
Speaker A:I wish, I wish to begin with they didn't have to be in the system like that.
Speaker A:They would have never left home.
Speaker A:Sure, they're in our homes and we're going to love them well and like they're part of our own family because they are when they're with us.
Speaker A:But at the same time there's like a brokenness and a hurt there that we can love them until here on end.
Speaker A:And that hurt and brokenness may be there either, you know, while they're with us or the rest of their lives.
Speaker A:And it's just, it's a hard piece to hold.
Speaker B:You are so pastoral and answered that so gently when people ask me that or they say that to me.
Speaker B:I'm like, are you.
Speaker B:Like, are you serious?
Speaker B:Think about what you just said.
Speaker B:Think about just.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker B:Like, there is not a more well intended, terrible statement you can say to a foster parent.
Speaker B:I think about a foster kid.
Speaker B:Because, like you said, it's well intended, but it's like, hold on.
Speaker B:Think two or three layers deeper.
Speaker B:Think about what you just said.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, it's kind of the same one when, like, oh, I couldn't do that.
Speaker A:Would get too attached.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's.
Speaker A:That's the thing.
Speaker B:I was going to ask you that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, one of my buddies who.
Speaker B:Him and his wife have fostered over 40 kids throughout their journey, and he's a.
Speaker B:He's a military vet like me.
Speaker B:I won't say what branches because I don't want to embarrass him, but he.
Speaker B:We joke.
Speaker B:People say, oh, man, I could give the kids back.
Speaker B:I would love him too much.
Speaker B:And I'm like, yeah, we don't care about them.
Speaker B:We just, you know, bring them in and ship them off.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's.
Speaker B:We don't care.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker B:It's funny.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker B:And I think it comes from people not knowing what to say.
Speaker B:So they just.
Speaker B:People don't like to be silent or not have comments on stuff.
Speaker B:So I think it comes from a place of not knowing what to say.
Speaker B:So they just grab at something and it's like, okay, yeah.
Speaker A:And like, with the other statement, too, like, it is.
Speaker A:It is well intended.
Speaker A:I understand what they're saying.
Speaker A:And it is hard.
Speaker B:It is hard, right?
Speaker A:Absolutely devastating.
Speaker A:Every time we've seen kids go home and things are good, like, the situation is better, it's still hard.
Speaker A:All of our biological boys have cried for days because we miss those kiddos.
Speaker A:My wife and I have cried for days because we missed those kiddos.
Speaker A:And so I absolutely get.
Speaker A:You know, it is definitely well intended when you.
Speaker A:When you make a statement like that.
Speaker A:And that's exactly what these kids need.
Speaker A:They need someone to love them that much.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker B:Good and hard can coexist, right?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Is it.
Speaker B:Was it challenged?
Speaker B:So have you guys been able to build deep relationships with any of the bio parents that your foster kiddos have gone home to?
Speaker A:Not a ton, but there have been a couple.
Speaker A:One in particular, you know, we're still somewhat connected to.
Speaker A:And that.
Speaker A:That story is an interesting one.
Speaker A:Just with that family, it was actually a relationship more with dad than it was with Biomom.
Speaker A:The relationship with dad actually ended where we offered to babysit after they had gone home.
Speaker B:Oh, cool.
Speaker A:To help him out because he needed that support.
Speaker A:And so for a little bit after that we were just babysitters.
Speaker A:And then every once in a while that kind of drifted.
Speaker A:And then every now, every once in a while we'll just like have the kiddos for a little bit on a Saturday or you know, weekday so that we can catch up and see them and they can, you know, be with us for a little bit.
Speaker A:But that's kind of the only one.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:There was another one where, you know, we were really questioned why this kiddo was, was removed from the home.
Speaker A:And on all, everything we understood of what was going on, it really ended up just being like a language barrier.
Speaker A:English was not mom's first language.
Speaker A:And so I think there were some miscommunications and.
Speaker A:But in that scenario, I remember one time, you know, transport person dropping the baby off from visit was like, hey mom, really so thankful for you.
Speaker A:And she, she asked, would you be the godparents?
Speaker A:We were like, I don't know about that.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:But it's just that kind of like, you know, we had built that rapport with her in that short amount of time and I was incredibly humbled by that question and so was my wife and.
Speaker A:But we just communicate like I don't know if that, if that's going to work.
Speaker A:Like we would consider it maybe.
Speaker A:But those are the kind of the two and again, little glimpses of God doing things in big ways.
Speaker A:But those are the two that kind of stick out.
Speaker A:The rest of them.
Speaker A:It's not that it's been bad by any means, but it has been cordial, you know, as, as we get to those spaces towards the end of placement and they end up going back home.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So over time there's been a little bit of it, but you know, it's, it's a blessing for us when we can build those relationships and have those and we treasure those a ton for sure.
Speaker B:Talking with you, like that's one, it sounds like that's one of your guys superpowers as a foster couple is learning how to love bio parents.
Speaker B:Well, in your journey at all, did you guys ever struggle with like resentment or frustration toward bio parents?
Speaker B:Because I, I asked that question with the intent of being.
Speaker B:I know I struggled with that a lot at the beginning of our journey and I think a lot of less experienced foster parents also struggle with that.
Speaker B:Share some wisdom on if you struggle with that and if you did, how did you guys navigate that and overcome that.
Speaker B:Because I think that is a lot of wisdom to share with us.
Speaker B:We're eight years in Us.
Speaker B:We're old.
Speaker B:We're old.
Speaker B:Old hats for foster in the foster world.
Speaker B:What kind of wisdom can you give to some of our younger peers on how you can curb that resentment?
Speaker A:Yeah, I.
Speaker A:That's an interesting one because, you know, to be perfectly honest, like, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:There's been moments where the resentment is kind of.
Speaker A:It builds from this place of, like, why can't you just do the things?
Speaker A:Like, you're not doing the things.
Speaker A:Just do the things.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I think in those moments, in our frustration, what we have learned to do is one, we have to.
Speaker A:We have to be rooted in, like, the gospel message throughout all this process and really in all of life, but in particular for us with.
Speaker A:With those relationships and those kind of waters that we navigate as foster parents, because we have to remind ourselves that that resentment is a natural reaction to hard things.
Speaker A:And yet the Holy Spirit is doing a work in us, and so we can lean into him and his work in us and then choose to move out of that resentment is the hard work.
Speaker A:And then not only choose to move out of it, but then choose to actively stay in a place where we can feel compassion and grace and love and kindness even when things are not going the way we just hoped they would.
Speaker A:You know, when things aren't being done or DCS is not doing the things, or just communication's not there.
Speaker A:I think that piece for us is just this reminder of running to Jesus in those moments, and then not only running to Jesus, but running to the community that we've built around us.
Speaker A:And I talked about that at the conference that, you know, we wouldn't be here eight years later, 10 placements later, without community.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:We've survived all this.
Speaker A:And survived is a bad word because I said that we're not surviving placements.
Speaker A:You know, we're.
Speaker A:We're being formed in them.
Speaker A:We have grown in these.
Speaker A:In this season of foster care because of our community, because we've had people who we can kind of go to talk about these hard things.
Speaker A:And some of them just know how to listen and hold it.
Speaker A:There's nothing they have to do.
Speaker A:It's a place that we can just vent.
Speaker A:Some of those in our community have, like, stepped up and, like, hey, we'll do respite.
Speaker A:Hey, do you need a meal tonight?
Speaker A:Hey, can we take the.
Speaker A:The bio kids?
Speaker A:And can we, you know, take them to something and just give you Guys, some space.
Speaker A:We've got one family in our homeschool group, homeschool community, who every once in a while would just watch all of our kids.
Speaker A:So Amy and I can go out on a date, which is like, oh, you know, and they've got a big family, we've got a big fan.
Speaker A:They're like, what's a couple more?
Speaker A:Just bring it all over.
Speaker A:They'll hang out and you guys go have, you know, dinner and, and hang out a little bit.
Speaker A:And so it's those pieces that really have just made the resentment, the hard like, heart posture things have.
Speaker A:God has used those spaces to really heal us and move us out of that.
Speaker A:But it's a choice, right?
Speaker A:Like, it's a choice to stay in that.
Speaker A:So how.
Speaker B:Like, what are practical.
Speaker B:That's a qu.
Speaker B:Like, you guys have obviously been very intentional with it.
Speaker B:What are some lack of a better word, tactical ways you guys actively do that?
Speaker B:Like, what's your rhythms, what's your cadence to make?
Speaker B:Because like you said, it's a choice.
Speaker B:It's something you have to choose to do.
Speaker B:What in your guys's life, you shared community, being around those folks.
Speaker B:What else tactically, practically do you guys do to stay in that good spot?
Speaker A:We'll say, yeah, I think, you know, and more of that has to do with the day to day.
Speaker A:And so like, one of the things that I'll do, so I cook dinner in our home for the most part, and we suck at getting groceries for like a whole week.
Speaker A:So it's like, I'll work all day and then I'm like, I gotta run in the store and get stuff for dinner.
Speaker A:And so I'll usually take one of the, of the, you know, kids with me or multiple of the kids with me.
Speaker A:And then that creates space for Amy just to like, be and take a break for a second.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Instead of having all of them.
Speaker A:Or she'll do things like that.
Speaker A:And like, you know, I. I've got stuff going on.
Speaker A:I've got church, I'm working, I've got school that I've got to work on.
Speaker A:And she'll be like, hey, I've got it.
Speaker A:Go, go do your thing.
Speaker A:Or, you know, for me, I had a pastoral friend who him and I loved movies.
Speaker A:Loved movies.
Speaker A:And so one of his things on his day off was go to the movie theater where it's like, quiet, your brain can just veg for a little bit.
Speaker B:Nice.
Speaker A:You know, sit in the dark, watch a movie, a good movie usually.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And so like, Amy has created that space for me to go and kind of unplug for a minute, for a couple hours on a day off or something, and then I can come back and I'm refreshed.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And then we find spaces to do that together.
Speaker A:Last year, we got to go to Jamie Finn's Filled Together conference, which was just amazing, like, to be able to step into a room with.
Speaker A:I think there's like 500 other people there, foster families, parents.
Speaker A:And to know.
Speaker A:To not have to say a thing, and they know exactly where you are, that's like life giving.
Speaker A:It is that it's restful.
Speaker A:And so those are those.
Speaker A:Those pieces right now in this season of life, like, really, they're all surrounded or kind of circled around rest and moments of rest.
Speaker A:Because life is just chaos.
Speaker A:And that's okay.
Speaker A:We've chosen that.
Speaker A:And, like, we know that that's.
Speaker A:That's a thing.
Speaker A:It won't be forever, but it's.
Speaker A:How can we find those moments of rest?
Speaker A:And usually when we're wrestling with a hard thing, whether that's, you know, resentment in our own hearts towards whatever's going on with the situation or frustration with the system or how it functions or the lack of control we actually have in this whole thing, like, usually it is a process together.
Speaker A:Rest.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:All right, we've gathered kind of where we are.
Speaker A:Let's get back at it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:That's so interesting.
Speaker B:I love hearing you say some things, because it sounds like you and your wife have figured out the things.
Speaker B:It's very similar to what Whitney and I have figured out in order to keep being successful.
Speaker B:It's almost like there's a pattern, and that's why we need to share it with people who are new to this, so they know what to do.
Speaker B:So I'm glad you shared that.
Speaker B:Do you feel like foster care has been one of the ways God has, one of the vehicles he's used to help sanctify you in your walk with him?
Speaker A:Absolutely, 1,000%.
Speaker A:You know, they say that about marriage.
Speaker A:They say that when you start to have kids, and then, you know, you throw foster care in there.
Speaker A:And it is absolutely a sanctification process that really, I didn't realize, and maybe I've.
Speaker A:I've come into a space where that's like becoming a thing.
Speaker A:And just that awareness of the spiritual formation components, not just for the kids in our home, obviously.
Speaker A:Like, we want the kids that come through our home to be shaped by the gospel message by Jesus.
Speaker A:I don't know that I realized or had Any intention of stepping into this space for God to form me.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Do a work of sanctification through, like, the surrender of foster care.
Speaker A:And it's absolutely been one of those things where it is a constant of, like, checking my heart and God being like, josh, where are you?
Speaker A:Why do you care about what's shaping you?
Speaker A:What matters to you?
Speaker A:Is it me?
Speaker B:Do you listen to Philip Anthony Mitchell ever?
Speaker A:Yeah, every once in a while.
Speaker B:My wife Whitney shared a podcast of his to me today, and he talked about, like.
Speaker B:Like, the best way to live is to die to yourself.
Speaker B:Like, he repeated lots of times.
Speaker B:Talked about crucifying the pieces of him that were still dark, still.
Speaker B:And it's just like, foster care helps you do that.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:I think daily reminder to die to self.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Have you had any reconciliations happen where you were, like, nervous about the kids going home, Felt like it was too soon, had an uneasy feeling about it?
Speaker B:Like, how did you guys navigate that?
Speaker A:Yeah, we've had a couple.
Speaker A:I mean, the only thing on our end that we felt like we could in those moments was just advocate and be like, hey, we think this is not ready.
Speaker A:Like, they're not ready yet.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker A:We think, like, from what we've gathered in the situation, from talking with, you know, transport folks or.
Speaker A:Or DCS or even just our folks, like our agency and the connection points they have, and we just don't feel like it's there yet.
Speaker A:We're not saying we're not.
Speaker A:We're against it.
Speaker A:We're just kind of saying, hey, let's give it some more time.
Speaker A:And so we.
Speaker A:We just try to be really vocal about that, make sure that people know how we feel.
Speaker A:And sometimes that's been a thing that's, you know, worked where for one placement, you know, mom had a couple of kids in foster care, and they were.
Speaker A:She had been working really hard to get them all back home, and she was doing great.
Speaker A:And the little boy in our care had just other needs, some special needs and more.
Speaker A:More help that required.
Speaker A:He required.
Speaker A:And so they wanted all these kids to go back at the same time.
Speaker A:And we just said, hey, there's extra work and attention that needs to go in here.
Speaker A:Like, maybe let's get the others acclimated first, and then we can move to get this one back there, too.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And they kind of heard that and evaluated and said, oh, yeah, like, let's do that.
Speaker A:And so everybody went to be home.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The little guy in our home just took a little longer because they wanted to make sure he was ready and she was ready for all of them to come back home.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah, there's been moments like that.
Speaker A:There was.
Speaker A:We had two little girl twins that they weren't with us for very long, but when they went home, we just, like, voiced, hey, it's.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:We think it's too fast, but mom was doing all the things, and, you know, DCS was like, no, we're gonna.
Speaker A:We're gonna get them back.
Speaker A:And again, we reiterated, like, we just think it's too fast.
Speaker A:And they said, we hear you, but she's done all the things.
Speaker A:And so we're gonna move them.
Speaker A:And we're like, okay.
Speaker A:And that's one that we've.
Speaker A:We've never heard anything after that about, you know, where they're at or how they're doing.
Speaker A:For a good chunk of the kiddos in our home, we.
Speaker A:We can gather where they are and how they're doing, whether it's by direct connection to biofamily or just connections we've still had over the years.
Speaker A:But, yeah, it's hard.
Speaker A:It's hard to, like, feel in everything that you are, in your body, in your soul, and in your person, that, you know, time isn't right and.
Speaker A:And then it not, you know, kids go home.
Speaker B:You touched on something that Whitney and I think is really important is being a vocal advocate for the kids in your care.
Speaker B:And we.
Speaker B:But we talk about that a lot.
Speaker B:Will you just talk about real quick?
Speaker B:I basically want people to hear the same thing from a different voice because how important it is, how me and Whitney believe we might only be the only advocate these kids got.
Speaker B:Would you just go into your perspective on it, why you think it's so important to be so vocal supportive and advocating for these kiddos?
Speaker A:Yeah, I think for us, you know, especially because reunification is our goal when kiddos come into home.
Speaker A:And that's like, that's the miracle we want to see go to work.
Speaker A:We have to advocate for all the things that they can receive or benefit from when they're in our care.
Speaker A:And that falls on us as their foster parents.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, like, we have to.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:Is this, like, a part of the responsibility, in our view, of making sure that first steps comes in, making sure that, you know, all the pieces are set in order for visits and the things are being said that are happening, that were said are going to happen.
Speaker A:And, you know, we're meeting with therapists, we're getting all of those things so that when they leave our home, because, again, for us, that is the goal.
Speaker A:They are better off and hopefully more prepared and healthier and stronger to go back to a home that's ready for them, you know, and it's just like we, we have to do everything we can.
Speaker A:And sometimes that's met with ears that hear us and sometimes it's not.
Speaker B:And it can be exhausting.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:All right, well, we've been talking for over 30 minutes already.
Speaker B:Look at us.
Speaker B:Okay, let me think about.
Speaker B:So I can only ask you a few more because I want to keep you all night.
Speaker B:What's the biggest thing God has taught you through foster care?
Speaker A:I think the biggest thing that God has taught us through foster care is journey of following Jesus is hard.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:You know, we, we homeschool our kids and we've got some folks sometimes that ask like, well, aren't you worried about their socialization?
Speaker A:Aren't you worried about, like, what that's going to be?
Speaker A:And we're like, dude, we're foster parents.
Speaker A:These guys are.
Speaker A:We are having the conversations of what's going on in the real world and.
Speaker B:What they're light years ahead of most kids and understanding.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's real life.
Speaker A:It's like these are kids that they love and they hold and hug and, you know, play with.
Speaker A:And so like they are feeling these things.
Speaker A:And as they're getting older, we've got a preteen, we've got a 10 year old and an 8 year old.
Speaker A:And as they're getting older and can understand deeper, more complex things, our theological discussions of what God is calling us to as followers of Jesus become deeper and deeper.
Speaker A:And we have the benefit of seeing this played out in our home through the lens of foster care as a gospel, kind of like lived out theology.
Speaker A:And so, you know, we always are weighing the tension of this is hard.
Speaker A:And this is what God has called us to.
Speaker A:He's called us to hard.
Speaker B:Yeah, a lot of people don't like hard.
Speaker B:I'm always, and I always get confused when people buck hard.
Speaker B:I'm like, I don't know if you've read the same Bible I've read, but it's kind of part of the gig.
Speaker A:Well, and to be completely, you know, honest, transparent, I don't like hard.
Speaker B:No, we don't like it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like even g, you know, even Jesus, the night before he went to the cross, he asked God to take, you know, the cup of wrath.
Speaker B:He said, not my will, but yours.
Speaker B:I don't want to do this, but I will, because I know that's what's the best?
Speaker A:You know, so, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But it is that, like, dying of self piece.
Speaker A:And, you know, I just.
Speaker A:We're going through Second Corinthians.
Speaker A:We've been working through first and Second Corinthians for almost a year now.
Speaker A:And I just preached on 2nd Corinthians 5.
Speaker A:And in that, Paul is writing to the church in Corinth, and, you know, they're wanting to live the Corinthian dream of like, I'm going to build my own empire.
Speaker A:I'm going to have all the things that I couldn't have as a Jew in, you know, Israel or Jerusalem occupied by Rome, but now I can, like, build it here.
Speaker A:I can have my own life.
Speaker A:And Paul is saying, yeah, the walk with Jesus is not about having your own kingdom.
Speaker A:It's about building up his kingdom.
Speaker A:And he's like, the work that he called us to is the ministry of reconciliation.
Speaker A:And it is this call to be an ambassador representative for King Jesus and the kingdom of heaven here on earth in this moment, in this time.
Speaker A:And that's going to be hard.
Speaker B:I'm going to switch gears on you a little bit.
Speaker B:We're going to take off the foster parent hat.
Speaker B:We're going to put on the pastor of a church hat.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Why do you think some churches do so well in caring for foster and adoptive kids?
Speaker B:And why do you think some churches completely miss it?
Speaker A:Yeah, I think the churches that do it well, from my experience, are churches who have mobilized people either who have been touched by foster care, have some kind of connection of foster care, or have just, like, community of foster parents in their midst.
Speaker A:And so they see the need of caring for these folks and these families and these kiddos, and they say, we can do this, we can step in.
Speaker A:And a lot of them, you know, there's quite a few in the Indy area that do a great job of this.
Speaker A:A lot of them start off small, and it just grows into this massive thing.
Speaker A:And so, you know, it's just.
Speaker A:It's probably being obedient to the call of like, hey, go, go serve.
Speaker A:And they do a great job of it.
Speaker A:And I, you know, the piece of why some churches don't do a better job.
Speaker A:I think it's a little bit of just the not knowing.
Speaker A:Not knowing how to serve.
Speaker A:You know, what that could look like?
Speaker A:I think, you know, the.
Speaker A:In their mind, it's like, well, we have to.
Speaker A:We all have to become foster parents in our church.
Speaker A:And that would be.
Speaker A:I mean, there.
Speaker A:There are churches that have done that and, you know, what is it down in Texas or somewhere in the south, one of the churches.
Speaker B:Possum Trot.
Speaker B:That movie.
Speaker B:Yeah, that is such a good movie.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And like, you know, the foster care system there, like, all the kids were in homes.
Speaker A:They didn't have any need for it anymore.
Speaker A:And so, you know, that's God working in ginormous way.
Speaker A:But I think to put that in a church's lap and be like, it seems overwhelming.
Speaker A:They just don't know how to help.
Speaker A:You know, the idea maybe if we could begin to have discussions like this, of, well, start small.
Speaker A:Like if, you know, a foster family take them a meal, a meal that would feed, you know, a large group of people.
Speaker A:You know, if you have the resources or the ability to bless them financially or otherwise do it.
Speaker A:They may not ask for it, but that little bit might be something that could help that family go and enjoy a meal or an activity together or something like that.
Speaker A:Or maybe it's just like learning to sit.
Speaker A:You know, as a pastor, I think the most powerful thing I've learned over the years is the power of presence.
Speaker A:Just being able to learn and sit with people in really hard times, not even having to say anything.
Speaker A:Like, I've learned that I don't have to have the answers.
Speaker A:I can just show up and be with people.
Speaker A:And oftentimes that's enough to let them know that we care, to let them know that God cares.
Speaker A:And I think that could be a starting place.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, how can we learn to just sit with our foster families and listen and not provide answers to fix the things, not, you know, show up in any other way other than just being present?
Speaker A:I think that's.
Speaker A:That could be a big step.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I don't, you know, to be completely honest, I don't have the answers.
Speaker A:I wish I did.
Speaker A:I wish.
Speaker B:That'd be nice.
Speaker A:It would.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:We could figure this out.
Speaker A:And I do think it's the church's responsibility.
Speaker B:I was gonna ask that as a follow up.
Speaker B:Do you.
Speaker B:There's a clear biblical mandate, the command to care for vulnerable kids, kids in foster care, kids needing adopted.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think, you know, in.
Speaker A:In scriptural language, it's the widows, the orphan, you know, and the poor.
Speaker A:And I think contextually for us foster kids and foster, you know, placements and things like that, they fall.
Speaker A:All those vulnerable children, they fall into that category.
Speaker A:And so absolutely, there's a mandate for the church to be stepping in.
Speaker A:And again, it's just trying to figure out how can we do that.
Speaker A:How can we scale it for whatever context we all we're in, whether we're in rural middle of nowhere Indiana or we're in the middle, the heart of Indy, what does that look like for our people to love and serve foster families and foster kiddos.
Speaker B:All right, wrap it up.
Speaker B:Last question.
Speaker B:I've asked you a lot of questions.
Speaker B:I prom.
Speaker B:Well, I'm not going to promise because I don't want to be a liar.
Speaker B:Family is listening right now and they are just having a really hard time loving bio parents.
Speaker B:What would you say to them?
Speaker A:I would ask them, what is it that you're feeling towards them?
Speaker A:And are there other areas apart from foster care, apart from relationship with them?
Speaker A:And maybe that's resonating and is that something we need to begin to give over to the Lord?
Speaker A:So whether that's fear, anxiety, you know, resentment, frustration, my guess is that foster care may not be the only place that's happening.
Speaker A:And maybe it's the place where we.
Speaker A:It gets expressed the most because these things are hard and emotional and tension filled.
Speaker A:And so it comes out in these spaces.
Speaker A:But what is that barrier that's allowing you to.
Speaker A:That's not allowing you to have that compassion and joy and kindness and love and all those fruits of the spirit towards someone who is maybe hurting and dealing with their own life circumstance that we may not fully know?
Speaker A:We get one side of that picture, but we don't have a full view of what's going on there.
Speaker A:And so, you know, that's.
Speaker A:It's probably more of like an internal introspective question of like, where's my walk with Jesus?
Speaker A:What's prohibiting me from like loving that maybe someone or caring about someone that I maybe don't want to or find hard to.
Speaker A:And maybe I'm just speaking from my own experience.
Speaker A:Oftentimes for me, there's other stuff going on in my heart.
Speaker A:And then in the foster care space where things are heavy and tension filled, the resentment, the fear, the anxiety, the annoyance, the anger, the frustration, that stuff's just amplified in that space.
Speaker A:But really there's hard things going on with me that I have to take and surrender to Jesus and say, do a work in me.
Speaker A:Help me to see them the way you see them, the way that, you know, we're reminded that we're all made in the image of God.
Speaker A:And because of that, there's worth and dignity and value in their lives.
Speaker A:And I want to see them the way you see them.
Speaker B:Jesus,.
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